Meeting of the Parliament

Meeting date: Thursday, April 22, 2010

Official Report 1132KB pdf

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Veterans (Criminal Justice System)

The final item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S3M-6024, in the name of Angela Constance, on veterans in the criminal justice system. The debate will be concluded without any question being put.

Motion debated,

That the Parliament notes with concern the recent survey and anecdotal evidence that suggests that a large number of veterans become involved in the criminal justice system; recognises that trauma, mental health problems and substance abuse related to combat can often be a root cause of veterans offending; believes that, while no person is above the law and some veteran crimes cannot be linked to their experiences in the forces, prison is not the best place to deal with such deep-seated personal issues; considers that the men and women from across Scotland, including Livingston, who serve in the armed services make great sacrifices on Scotland’s behalf and that more assistance should be available for veterans who are at risk of offending or who become involved in the criminal justice system, and believes that, as a first step, a thorough study should be carried out to gain an accurate estimate of the number of veterans in prison, on probation or serving community sentences in Scotland.

17:06

Men and women from throughout Scotland who serve in the armed forces make huge sacrifices on behalf of all of us. While no one is above the law, we nonetheless have a moral responsibility to those who risk everything for their country. To do the best by our troops, we need honestly to acknowledge the trauma of active combat and the personal cost for some in terms of physical and mental health, substance misuse, relationship problems and resettling into civilian life, all of which can be the root cause of offending by veterans. If we are to do the right thing by veterans whose front-line experience relates directly or indirectly to their offending behaviour, as with all offenders we need to know who they are, where they are and what works.

Of those leaving the forces, 15 per cent experience transitional and coping problems. As parliamentarians, we should be concerned about a recent survey and anecdotal evidence that suggests that there are a large number of veterans within the criminal justice system. That body of evidence exists in England and Wales, and we should seek the same information in Scotland. A recent joint study by the Ministry of Justice and the Ministry of Defence found that 3 per cent of the prison population in England and Wales had served in the armed forces. However, the National Association of Probation Officers estimated that the figure was 8 per cent; the Veterans in Prison Association estimated that it was 9.1 per cent; and one study in HM Prison Dartmoor in 2007 estimated that it was 16.5 per cent.

What of Scotland, with her strong military traditions? According to the most recent figures from the Scottish Prison Service, there are 135 veterans in a prison population approaching 8,000. That is 1.7 per cent of the prison population who self-report if asked whether they have an armed forces history. As a former prison social worker, I instinctively think that those figures are an underestimate. Indeed, the SPS, to its credit, appears to acknowledge that. I am grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for Justice Kenny MacAskill and the United Kingdom defence minister Kevan Jones for giving me their assurance that they will work with the Scottish Prison Service to ascertain accurately how many veterans are in prison in Scotland.

The most thorough study in England and Wales involved the matching of MOD and Ministry of Justice databases. If the findings were similar in Scotland, the number of known veterans in our criminal justice system would at least double. However, the figure for the number of veterans who are serving community service and probation orders is unknown. I will reply to Kevan Jones’s helpful letter and will seek the minister’s support in encouraging a comprehensive study of veterans throughout the criminal justice system in Scotland.

We need to know the number of veterans in prison and elsewhere in our justice system to ensure that the appropriate spectrum of services for veterans at risk of offending is available, from arrest referral, diversion, alternatives to custody, and throughcare and aftercare provision for those for whom there is no option but custody. Of course, much harm could be prevented with the right support to veterans, pre and post release from service.

Whatever the statistics, veterans will make up a small part of the overall prison population. However, NAPO states that a significant number of veterans have seen combat and that most incarcerated veterans appear to suffer from a combination of post-traumatic stress disorder, depression and alcohol problems. Evidence suggests that armed services personnel are more likely than the general population to drink dangerously.

Combat Stress deals with a staggering 4,200 veterans with profound trauma across the United Kingdom. Our armed forces often have experiences of the most harrowing and disturbing nature, so it should be no surprise to us that ex-service personnel who commit crimes are usually struggling with trauma issues. Having worked in both the criminal justice system and the mental health system, I am not convinced that prison or mainstream mental health services are always best equipped to care for and to rehabilitate veterans whose offending relates to combat trauma. Understandably, veterans would rather speak to other veterans about their experiences. More effective means of preventing and treating psychiatric service-related disorders are required, as it can be 13 years before a veteran is referred to an organisation such as Combat Stress. We know that combat-related mental health problems can be missed or misdiagnosed.

At a recent joint meeting of the mental health and veterans cross-party working group, I heard that more education is needed among general practitioners and that, in some instances, the use of benzodiazepines can lead to flashbacks and violence.

Some excellent work is undertaken. Recently I was blown away by a visit to Erskine; Veterans First Point is another hugely impressive organisation. The appointment of veterans champions in local authorities and the national health service is welcome, but criminal justice authorities may need to do likewise.

I thank the academics and the veteran, criminal justice and mental health organisations that recently gave up their time to participate in a summit that I held in Parliament. I am most grateful to those members who signed my motion and are participating in tonight’s debate. I also appreciate the contributions of the many individuals who have contacted me on the matter, subsequent to an incisive article by a young freelance journalist, Rachel Money.

I firmly believe that we are only at the beginning of the journey on this matter. Sadly, given the nature of the conflict in Iraq and, in particular, the theatre of war in Afghanistan, if we do not take pre-emptive action we will see more traumatised veterans in our prisons in Scotland.

Will the member take an intervention?

I think that I am about to run out of time. I have been watching the clocks, but they are all over the place.

I end by quoting a Combat Stress poster:

“without our help—for some the battle will go on forever”.

A large number of members have indicated that they wish to speak, so I ask members to stick to four minutes.

17:13

I welcome the opportunity to speak in the debate and congratulate my fellow Justice Committee member, Angela Constance, on bringing her motion to the Parliament. In doing so, she highlights some important issues.

We can only begin to wonder at the trauma and stress that those who serve in armed combat face. It must be very stressful to those involved to see comrades close to them die or be injured in conflict. The intensity of that conflict on a day-to-day basis must make it tremendously difficult for them to reacclimatise when they leave the armed services and return home. It is little wonder that, unfortunately, there are instances of armed services personnel drifting into taking too much alcohol and going on to suffer mental health problems. As we know from many discussions in the Parliament, those issues can contribute to crime. As Angela Constance indicated, a number of veterans drift into the criminal justice system. It is therefore important that we address how we can best support armed services personnel to stop them drifting into that system.

It is clear that there are issues relating to introducing legislation and sentencing rules that would prevent armed services personnel from going into prison. The best way to address the matter is to ensure that problems are brought out in background and social work reports, so that those who are in charge of sentencing can take the appropriate decisions and ensure that people are sentenced in the proper manner.

There are a number of practical things that we can do to minimise the impact of the problem. I understand what Angela Constance said about counting the number of armed forces personnel who are in prison or on probation or have community sentences. We can learn to manage the problem only if we know the numbers involved.

Intervention is the key. As people are about to leave the services and come back into society, it is important that they are tracked to ensure that they receive the appropriate support and that we try to give them stability in their lives.

I am the representative for Edinburgh city centre and Saughton prison. On preventive measures, we know the high number of people who have become homeless, and that being in the Army, having mental health problems or having been through the criminal justice system are indicators of the likelihood of becoming homeless. Does James Kelly agree that a preventive measure might be that, when people are leaving the Army, their potential housing situation could be considered so that problems are avoided?

As I said, intervention is the key. We need to give people stability and secure homes, and we need to address potential homelessness problems.

I am running out of time, so I will sum up. I welcome Angela Constance’s raising of the issues and I am sure that we can have a constructive debate that can move the issue forward and help to support our armed forces personnel.

17:17

It is, indeed, useful that Angela Constance has raised the issue of veterans in the criminal justice system. I congratulate her on having done so.

Angela Constance referred to a recent survey. She was honest enough to suggest that some of the evidence may be anecdotal but, like her, I think that there is a real issue. From my observations, it appears that a number of veterans are getting themselves into trouble, sleeping rough and contributing to problems that we seek to combat. We must recognise that the problem is likely to grow.

From 1945, there was a period of seven years before the Korean conflict, and there was a considerable passage of time between that conflict and the Falklands conflict. Obviously, conflicts are becoming different in nature and are, sadly, becoming much more frequent and savage. As a result, a significant number of people are being discharged from the armed forces suffering from mental and physical trauma. It is important that we underline our debt to those individuals, who have done much to defend our country physically, and its interests. It is also clear that we have a duty to do as much as we can to combat some of the problems that they face.

Particularly in the west of Scotland, many young men have traditionally—over several generations—gone into the armed forces. The armed forces tend not to institutionalise people—I do not mean for a moment to suggest that they do—but they set up a fairly disciplined structure. People are accommodated, fed and their medical needs are cared for. I do not think that we have got things right in respect of what happens to people who are discharged.

It is all right if the soldier who is retiring is discharged into a fairly stable situation in which there is a family, a partner and children. However, we know that many single men leave the comparatively sheltered environment of the army to go into the world without having much idea about how they will house themselves and pay for their accommodation or find a job. There is a failure under that heading, which needs to be addressed, probably by the Ministry of Defence in connection with Government agencies.

We cannot have a two-tier approach to justice; a person who has offended must face the consequences of their criminality. Angela Constance knows better than any member present that, in such cases, social inquiry reports highlight veterans’ difficulties, whether they are to do with mental trauma, alcoholism or addiction that has been caused by the veteran’s combat experience. The courts make due allowance for such difficulties.

However, there is considerable merit in the member’s suggestion that a much fuller study be carried out, to enable us to quantify the extent of the difficulty. I encourage Government agencies in Scotland or at Westminster to carry out such a study, from which we could learn a great deal.

17:21

I join in the congratulations to Angela Constance on her well-worded and appropriate motion, which comes, to some extent, from her professional experience.

The issue received publicity at United Kingdom level in September last year. At the time, I wrote to the Cabinet Secretary for Justice, because it was suggested that throughout the UK some 20,000 ex-servicepeople were in the criminal justice system, of whom 8,500 were in prison. My colleague Jeremy Purvis, who knows about such things, tells me that there was an issue to do with the figures that the Ministry of Defence issued. However, if the figures were anything like accurate, they would suggest that in Scotland about 2,000 veterans are in the criminal justice system, of whom 850 are in prison. Those are significant numbers.

The response that I received from the Scottish Prison Service on behalf of the Cabinet Secretary for Justice, said:

“on 15 October 2009 there were 141 ex-servicemen, all male, held in Scottish prisons of which 5 are Foreign Nationals.”

That is curious. It also said that

“This figure represented less than 2% of the overall prison population.”

There is clearly an issue. Angela Constance talked about the figures that have emerged from studies, and there might be merit in a more detailed study.

According to the letter that I received,

“As part of the reception process all prisoners are asked if they have served or are serving in the armed services. This information is recorded ... on a prisoner’s initial reception into prison.”

We need to know that the information is accurate. The comprehensiveness of such questioning sometimes leaves something to be desired. We need to know a bit more about that sort of thing.

When we have ascertained the numbers, we must consider the causes of and remedies for the problem. Relevant comments have been made in that regard. Bill Aitken rightly talked about the nature of service in the armed forces. It is inevitable that a number of single men—perhaps single women, too—come out of the forces having lost contact with their home base. They might have been stationed for years in Germany, England or other parts of the world. In such a context it is not surprising that issues to do with unemployment, homelessness, mental ill health and a lack of support structures are prominent. We must look closely at that.

The motion identifies issues to do with criminal justice; ex-servicemen face similar issues to do with homelessness. Although Government guidance gives priority to the identification of veterans and liaison with the armed forces on the issues, we are aware that people tend to fall through the net. Issues to do with jobs, mental health, alcohol use and homelessness can be causative factors or play a significant role in criminal justice matters.

The issue is slightly broader than being about members of the armed forces who have suffered post-traumatic stress disorder. There are three levels: people with a diagnosis of the disorder; people with no diagnosis but who suffer from it; and people who suffer from the dislocation of lifestyle when they return to civilian life.

On remedies, the other point of concern that came out of the letter from the Scottish Prison Service was about the availability of proper staff to deal with the issues in prison. The letter made the comment, which I think was a bit unhelpful in some ways, that

“the availability of psychological intervention within the SPS mirrors that of the general community”.

That is a bit of a concern, given the priorities that exist. It is an important issue.

17:25

I join others in welcoming the debate and congratulating Angela Constance on securing it. The issue is important, because although the responsibility for veterans rests primarily with Westminster, the responsibility for many of their services is devolved. When our servicemen and women come home after a period of service, it is vital that we support them during what are often turbulent transitional times.

The Mental Health Foundation has said that the challenges that service personnel face in readjusting to home life can have a significant impact on their mental health. If we fail to take proactive care of our veterans, problems such as alcohol and drug misuse, suicide and being sent to prison, which is the subject of the debate, will be more widespread. Although, as Angela Constance said, no crime is acceptable, we must do our best to understand the causes of crime committed by veterans and to treat them.

We have to remember that veterans now include many younger men and women who have served in the five conflicts since 1997: Kosovo, Bosnia, Sierra Leone, Iraq and Afghanistan. The number of veterans is significant, as is the variation in their experiences. Many of us would find it difficult to envisage some of the scenes that they have witnessed during their service.

The Mental Health Foundation has said that there is a need for veterans to receive a mental health assessment and the support that is required, which is welcome. Those good services should include housing, to which my colleague Sarah Boyack alluded, because homelessness is an important precursor to some of the prison admissions that we see.

We have to ensure that there is not just a good mental health and wellbeing service for our veterans but a good rehabilitative programme generally to ensure that military life, to which veterans have become accustomed, does not prevent them from re-entering their communities in Scotland.

As a first step, we need early and proactive assessment of veterans’ health. The 13-year delay to which Combat Stress referred is unacceptable and is a measure of the fact that we fail veterans.

We also have to collect data on admissions to prison. It is not just about seeing the prison population and the percentage of the daily population that is in prison—that mistake is often made. The number of people in prison is around 7,500, but the number of admissions is 45,000. I have to say that that is not necessarily the number of individuals—again, that is not clear, because the statistics are muddied. We need much clearer data. I welcome Angela Constance’s efforts in that area and hope that the Government, with the MOD and the SPS, will respond by endeavouring to provide a more accurate picture of what is happening. The criminal justice authorities need to keep much more accurate data, too.

I welcome the UK Government’s new horizons mental health strategy, which has promised to review the needs of serving personnel and veterans. At Holyrood, we had a joint meeting between the cross-party group on mental health and the cross-party group on supporting veterans in Scotland, which was excellent. We heard about the development of networked services, supported by units such as that at Hollybush. The meeting was attended by Kevin Woods, who, as chief executive of the NHS in Scotland, is leading the development of services for veterans, which is welcome.

We heard about the pilot project in Lothian between the NHS, the MOD and veterans organisations, which is welcome, and the work of specialists such as Dr Chris Freeman, who is taking a lead in this area. It would be wrong for us to sit back and let veterans charities such as Veterans Scotland be the mainstay of help—there must be a partnership. The partnership must include veterans, who will have views on how they would like to be supported.

I pay tribute to Angela Constance for her persistence on this issue and hope that it will be taken forward appropriately.

17:29

I, too, congratulate Angela Constance on securing this evening’s debate. I raised the matter of criminal acts—particularly acts of violence—committed by former members of the armed forces some years ago, and I am disappointed that we do not have clear data on those with a forces background who are serving custodial sentences. I therefore support any measures to ensure that the data are up to date and accurate.

The member is right to emphasise that a forces background does not exonerate anyone from criminal activity, but specific difficulties are undoubtedly faced by some servicemen and women on discharge and, perhaps more particularly but not exclusively, by those who have been emotionally and psychologically scarred by warfare, which, I suggest, by its very nature might have desensitising and destabilising long-term consequences. The dignity of the funeral corteges that process through Wootton Bassett cannot hide the fact of the broken bodies under those flagged coffins, but at least the dead are given that last respect. What of our physically and psychologically wounded?

As Bill Aitken stated, many join up young. The roll call of the dead and injured is testimony to the age of our serving forces. For many, the forces have been their family. Life will have been disciplined and structured, the days and weeks and years mapped out for them, yet it has long been known that the MOD does not have sufficient support systems in place for those vulnerable returnees who may find that relationships are hard to sustain. As Richard Simpson did, I commend the many voluntary organisations that give that support.

Too often, refuge is taken in alcohol or other opiates because, for example, there is no home to come home to. Once the sustaining discipline and order of service life is withdrawn, returning men and women can be, quite literally, on their own. The war that they fought for is far away and forgotten by the many. They do not even have public gratitude as returning war heroes. They are often anonymous except to loving family and friends. Is it any surprise that some find the challenges of adapting to civilian life so difficult or that some will fail and fall, eventually, into the criminal justice system?

Many years ago I suggested that local authorities, at the very least, should set up one point of contact for veterans to assist with directions for employment, housing, medical care and so on. I stress that they should assist—I am not calling for preferential treatment. They should at least plug the yawning gap that is left by the Ministry of Defence. That would at least be a bridge to help people to move from the support of the forces, through the support of the local authority, to adjustment to civilian life. In that way, there would be practical help for those veterans who might become criminalised for whatever reason.

I checked with Scottish Borders Council today and there is no such provision in place. I also checked with Midlothian Council, which hosts the barracks at Glencorse from where many are sent to the front line, and I commend its support for the drop-in centre for veterans at Dalkeith. However, when all is said and done, it is the Ministry of Defence that should shoulder the responsibility for volunteers and recruits, who deserve better both in and out of service.

I commend my colleague again for bringing this evening’s debate to the chamber.

17:33

I, too, congratulate Angela Constance on securing this evening’s debate. As she said, anyone who is convicted of a crime must suffer the consequences, and that holds for both veterans and those who have never served in the armed forces. That said, it is a sad fact of life that, down the years, Governments have not shown much concern for the veterans who have given long and loyal service in the Army, the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force. That indifference has been challenged in recent years and changes are taking place in assisting veterans to adjust to civilian life. Now we have to ensure that the Westminster and Scottish Governments, along with other appropriate interest groups, examine ways in which to take preventive measures that will dissuade that relatively small number of veterans who turn to crime or who subject people who are close to them to violence.

The national health services for treating people with post-traumatic stress disorder appear to be patchy. Local facilities may not offer the specialist services or be able to manage the veterans as required. For example, I am unaware of any specialist services to meet the treatment needs of veterans with PTSD. The Scottish Government should review local NHS provision in areas where we know a high proportion of veterans live. The Royal British Legion’s Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Families Association provides welfare visits to veterans in prison and their families. It is important that offenders—particularly those who are close to their release date—have access to such visits if they need them so that they can be helped through what is often a difficult period either side of their release. We must recognise the special difficulties that veterans have during their sentence and on release.

To improve the ways in which we reach veterans in prison, the Scottish Government must work with the MOD, the Prison Service and voluntary sector organisations to survey the prison population and find out about the veterans in it. That should help us to focus our efforts better.

Advice and guidance must be available before people leave the armed forces and when veterans return home. It must be exceedingly difficult—for young veterans in particular—to adjust to civilian life after experiencing the violence and slaughter of war. What do we know of those who have been proceeded against in our courts? As Richard Simpson said, it is difficult to envisage their experiences and what they have witnessed. Are offenders mainly from the Army, because they have been face to face with the enemy? Is the incidence of criminal behaviour lower among Royal Navy and Royal Air Force veterans?

Veterans must be given a comprehensive reintroduction to life on civvy street. Do we just take back their uniforms and immediately forget about them? Information should lead to good practice in helping men and women of all ranks to come to terms with civilian life after a life of military violence.

George Orwell said:

“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night”

because there are hard men willing to commit

“violence on their behalf.”

Those who protect us should be protected and assisted when their service on our behalf ends.

17:36

I, too, commend Angela Constance for securing this important debate. As most members have said, on the basis of their constituency casework and portfolio interests, it is vital for the Parliament to consider these issues.

Just this week, I spoke to the parent of a soldier who has just returned from Afghanistan and who is having considerable financial difficulties as a result of his holiday being cancelled due to the Icelandic ash cloud and banks charging to change money. The approach is inconsistent. I have also spoken to a parent who lost a son in conflict. It is humbling for MSPs to be involved in such issues, which highlight the fact that justice, health and all other devolved services owe a duty to servicemen and women who are serving their country and to veterans.

I declare an interest as the convener of the cross-party group on supporting veterans, the intention of which is to focus on the issues on which Angela Constance has challenged the Parliament. The picture is not clear, and I endorse absolutely the thrust of her argument. I will give a little bit of context, which is important.

There are about 5 million veterans throughout the United Kingdom, who represent about 9 per cent of the population. Members will know that the classification of a veteran in the UK differs from that in other countries. In the UK, anyone who has served one day in the armed forces is considered a veteran, whereas the definition in the United States and Holland, for example, requires active service in peacekeeping or in conflict. The classification means that the breadth of veterans is considerably greater in the UK than in other countries. That context is important, but it in no way diminishes the statistics on veterans who are in the criminal justice system or the mental health justice system.

Yesterday, I had the pleasure of attending in Edinburgh the conference of Veterans First Point, which takes the one-stop-shop approach that Christine Grahame described. That organisation has now been active for a year. It was fascinating to listen to Professor Ian Palmer, who is the director of the medical assessment programme in London, which operates a specialist centre for people with mental health difficulties and touches on all the different areas of trauma, mental health and criminal activity.

It is worth saying that about 0.1 per cent of regular service personnel are discharged annually for mental health reasons. However, as members have said, the number who present with mental health difficulties later is higher—on average, they will have had more than 10 years of difficulties—which creates difficulty with data capture.

The average length of time after which men present with mental health or other difficulties and seek help is 10 years. That is the same for men in relation to all services in Scotland, whether they are veterans or not. Men, typically, do not present themselves to access help through mental health services. That is a fact.

Veterans First Point is a very good service, because it reduces stigma. It is more acceptable for younger veterans to approach that service, because it is co-ordinated by and run with the involvement of veterans. That is really important as far as the criminal justice system is concerned.

There are serious data capture issues around housing support, criminal justice and mental health. Provision is too patchy, and it needs to be improved. That is part of the responsibility of the Scottish Government.

17:40

Angela Constance is to be commended for giving the Parliament the opportunity to debate an issue that has been overlooked for far too long. I do not have any direct experience of the negative side—of the criminal implications or of breakdown, which often face people who come from a veterans or services background—but I do have experience of the positive things that can be done to help people who have come through those circumstances.

Angela Constance referred to Erskine. I grew up in the grounds of what was then termed Erskine hospital. My father was a disabled ex-serviceman and obtained one of the cottages there. I lived in what I now realise was a wonderful environment. It was a close-knit community and a very supportive environment, where families flourished and were allowed to get on with their lives.

I saw some positive signs in Erskine hospital—it would now be regarded as a care home—concerning people whose family relationships had broken down. Sometimes people turned to taking a good drink, as it was described at the time—excessive alcohol consumption—and they ended up coming into Erskine hospital. They were supported and helped there.

I saw things that I did not understand as a child—the horrors that wars cause. My father spent nearly four years in a Japanese prisoner of war camp. When I was younger, he frequently suffered from malaria, and he relived all the horrors that he had experienced, through nightmares. In those days, there was no talk of post-traumatic stress or psychological support for those who had been through horrendous situations. However, my father benefited from a loving and supportive family and a close-knit community.

In those days, we lived in a totally different world. Even those who were not fortunate enough to benefit from places such as Erskine generally lived in communities where the family was still strong and important, where the community was close and tight knit, and where people looked after their own. Unfortunately, that is often no longer the case. We lived at a time when, although drink might have been a problem, drugs were not, unlike today. Unfortunately, too many young ex-service personnel now succumb to problems with drugs.

I saw the nightmare and stresses that war can cause, and I began to realise the implications for those who try to get on with their lives with no support. As other members have said, we are duty bound to consider our debt and our responsibility to those who have put so much on the line for us.

The key to all this is not to deal with veterans when they get to prison; the key is early intervention to ensure that, when they come out of the armed forces—as Sarah Boyack and James Kelly said—a decent house is available for them, as well as social work and psychological support services. I commend ministers for taking a close interest in matters such as medical facilities.

There is a problem that, fortunately, we are now recognising more and more. It pays us all in the long run to deal with such problems early, in a mature, conscientious fashion, not just from a financial perspective but because we owe it to those who have given so much for us.

17:44

I, too, pay tribute to Angela Constance, not only for securing the debate but for pursuing the issue vigorously. Every speaker has made new and important points. We are small in number but the standard of debate has been extremely high.

I have had a detailed informal discussion with Kevan Jones, who is my counterpart as minister for veterans in the UK Government, about identifying accurately the number of prisoners in Scotland who are veterans. I shall explain what was done south of the border.

The first thing to understand is that the Ministry of Defence has a database that includes the name, address and details of every veteran who lives in the United Kingdom. That is an important start because it means that, through the Ministry of Defence, we can identify every veteran in the country. The Prison Service south of the border matched that MOD database with the database of people in prison and officials were able to identify—accurately, it appears—the percentage of people in prison at that time who were veterans and, if they so wished, the names and addresses of the veterans who were in the prison system.

I asked Kevan Jones whether it would be possible in principle for the Ministry of Defence to work with the Scottish Prison Service to carry out exactly the same exercise in Scotland, to allow us to get a much better handle on the numbers. He saw no difficulty in it and suggested that, once the election is over—whoever the Secretary of State for Defence and the minister for veterans in the new Government after 6 May are—we can take the matter forward. I have already asked my officials to fix up an early meeting with the new veterans minister to that effect and to put the exercise on the agenda.

The second point that needs to be stressed is the distinction between the number of veterans in prison and the number in the criminal justice system. Many veterans may not be in prison but are at some other stage in the criminal justice system. Therefore, although a good start can be made by identifying the number in prison through co-operation with the Ministry of Defence on its database, it would probably be much more difficult to identify all those who are in the criminal justice system.

My belief—based on my mailbag and on having been minister for veterans, as well as minister for housing, for more than a year—is that 1.7 per cent is probably an underestimate of the percentage of prisoners at any time in Scotland who are veterans. The figure is based on prisoners who declare themselves to be veterans, but for various reasons they often do not declare themselves. The important point, however, is that, at 1.7 per cent, the number is 134. Even if the figure is double that, it still means that fewer than 300 prisoners at any time in Scotland are veterans, so it should not be beyond our wit, working with the Scottish Prison Service, to identify the particular needs relating to a prisoner’s status as a veteran that need to be catered for.

I agree absolutely with all the members—Hugh Henry, Christine Grahame and others—who said that we must take a wider view and consider prevention. The most difficult time for veterans is their transition from the armed services into civilian life. I have asked the Scottish Government’s armed services adviser—Major General David McDowall, the former general officer commanding second division in Scotland—to pursue the agreement that I had with John Hutton when he was Secretary of State for Defence and subsequently renewed with Kevan Jones and Bob Ainsworth, under which we are establishing throughout Scotland a process whereby the resettlement officer for each member of the armed services who is about to leave the services has a contact in the local authority to which the member of the services will relocate.

The person in the local authority will act as the single point of contact Christine Grahame mentioned and will help to co-ordinate not only local authority services but contacts with the designated people in the health service, who are already designated in most hospitals in Scotland, with the Department for Work and Pensions, with housing associations and with other relevant bodies. I believe that that quality and level of support in the transitional phase is essential to minimising the transitional difficulty that veterans experience when they leave the armed services and move into civilian life.

Other issues need to be addressed, but I do not have time to address them all. I take the point that Jeremy Purvis and other members made: that it is often 10 or 13 years before mental health problems are identified and it is sometimes even longer before they are dealt with. One of the major causes of problems is housing. The Housing (Scotland) Bill, which is currently going through the Local Government and Communities Committee, deals with the disadvantage that veterans currently have under the allocation system. We will rectify that problem. I have also specifically asked Linda McTavish, who is chairing my working party on supported accommodation, to look at the particular needs of veterans, because at a later stage they often need not only a house but total support in a totally supported accommodation environment.

Unfortunately, I am unable to outline the whole range of services, but I will mention one other matter. On 7 March, the Big Lottery Fund announced a new £35 million trust, which is to help veterans across the UK who struggle with the transition to civilian life, especially those with psychological wellbeing problems. I intend to try to access as much of that money as I possibly can over the coming months and years to improve the services that are available to our veterans in Scotland. We owe it to them.

Meeting closed at 17:52.