Contents
- Portfolio Question Time
- Gender Identity Services for Children and Young People (Cass Review)
- Colleges (Support)
- Business Motions
- Parliamentary Bureau Motions
- Decision Time
- World Asthma Day 2024
Business Motions
The next item of business is consideration of business motion S6M-13139, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on a change to business. Any member who wishes to speak on the motion should press their request-to-speak button now.
Motion moved,
That the Parliament agrees to the following revision to the programme of business for Thursday 9 May 2024—
delete
2.00 pm Appointment of Scottish Ministers
and insert
2.00 pm Appointment of Scottish Ministers and Junior Scottish Ministers—[George Adam]
I note that Pauline McNeill has asked to speak on the motion.
Apologies, Presiding Officer—I do not want to speak at the moment.
No member has asked to speak. Therefore, the question is, that motion S6M-13139 be agreed to.
Motion agreed to.
The next item of business is consideration of business motion S6M-13122, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme.
Motion moved,
That the Parliament agrees—
(a) the following programme of business—
Tuesday 14 May 2024
2.00 pm Time for Reflection
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Topical Questions (if selected)
followed by Stage 3 Proceedings: Housing (Cladding Remediation) (Scotland) Bill
followed by Committee Announcements
followed by Business Motions
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
6.00 pm Decision Time
followed by Members’ Business
Wednesday 15 May 2024
2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions
2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:
Constitution, External Affairs and Culture;
Justice and Home Affairs
followed by Scottish Labour Party Business
followed by Business Motions
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Approval of SSIs (if required)
5.10 pm Decision Time
followed by Members’ Business
Thursday 16 May 2024
11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions
11.40 am General Questions
12.00 pm First Minister's Questions
followed by Members’ Business
2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions
2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:
Education and Skills
followed by Stage 1 Debate: Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill
followed by Financial Resolution: Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill
followed by Appointment of the Chair of the Scottish Commission for Human Rights
followed by Appointment of Member of the Scottish Commission for Public Audit
followed by Business Motions
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5.00 pm Decision Time
Tuesday 21 May 2024
2.00 pm Time for Reflection
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Topical Questions (if selected)
followed by Stage 1 Debate: Post Office (Horizon System) Offences (Scotland) Bill
followed by Committee Announcements
followed by Business Motions
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5.00 pm Decision Time
followed by Members’ Business
Wednesday 22 May 2024
2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions
2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:
Wellbeing Economy, Net Zero and Energy;
Finance, Deputy First Minister Responsibilities and Parliamentary Business
followed by Stage 2 Proceedings: Post Office (Horizon System) Offences (Scotland) Bill
followed by Business Motions
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Approval of SSIs (if required)
5.00 pm Decision Time
followed by Members’ Business
Thursday 23 May 2024
11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions
11.40 am General Questions
12.00 pm First Minister's Questions
followed by Members’ Business
2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions
2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:
Transport
followed by Public Audit Committee Debate: Audit Scotland Report, Adult Mental Health
followed by Business Motions
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5.00 pm Decision Time
(b) that, for the purposes of Portfolio Questions in the week beginning 13 May 2024, in rule 13.7.3, after the word “except” the words “to the extent to which the Presiding Officer considers that the questions are on the same or similar subject matter or” are inserted.—[George Adam]
17:35
This is now the third time that I have sought to make a change to the business that the Scottish Government has proposed. I am proposing that the Parliament should hear from the Lord Advocate, with members staying back for just 30 minutes tomorrow. The Scottish National Party and the Greens refused such a proposal last week and, again, yesterday. I hope that the Parliament can now unite and agree to members staying behind for just 30 minutes tomorrow to hear from the Lord Advocate.
The Minister for Parliamentary Business will rightly say that, at the heart of this—those we have to be concerned about—are the sub-postmasters who were wrongly convicted because of the Horizon scandal. I agree whole-heartedly with what George Adam has said in that regard, but they are not being served at all if we are still unclear about the Lord Advocate’s position.
We know that nothing has changed as a result of the reshuffle today. Not a single front-bench portfolio has changed—the people are still there, and they are doing exactly the same jobs—so we know that Angela Constance will take through the Horizon bill in the coming weeks. What we do not know is what the head of the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service in Scotland thinks about the issue, and we do not know what she thinks as a member of the Scottish Government’s Cabinet. The minister has said repeatedly that there is no need for any further clarity, but there is.
A lot of SNP and Green members are in the chamber. I am happy to give way to any SNP or Green member who can tell me whether the Lord Advocate still believes that it would be wrong to have a process to enable mass exoneration for sub-postmasters.
[Made a request to intervene.]
Can any SNP or Green member who might be about to vote against getting the Lord Advocate into the chamber outline the Lord Advocate’s position?
They cannot.
I will.
I will come to Pauline McNeill in a minute.
I cannot fathom how democratically elected members who are sent to the chamber to represent their constituents can vote down a proposal for the Parliament to sit for just 30 extra minutes to get that vital answer from the Lord Advocate. SNP and Green members are all looking at their desks or their phones; the answer is not there. If we do not know the Lord Advocate’s position, I genuinely urge SNP and Green members to vote for this slight change to business tomorrow in order to get the Lord Advocate here.
If SNP and Green members are not willing to contribute, I will happily give way to Pauline McNeill.
Scottish Labour will support the amendment to the business motion, because we believe that there should be a statement from the Lord Advocate, and I want to say why. There is emerging evidence that the Crown Office knew or ought to have known that the Horizon system was questionable, and we still do not have answers on that.
We obviously need to see the details of the bill, but we will support any attempts to overturn convictions. However, it will not be enough for victims simply to have their convictions overturned. In fact, in the Sheriff Appeal Court this week, there were six cases in which it was deemed that the Horizon evidence was not corroboration, so those cases were overturned. Victims will want accountability for the full timeline in relation to who took decisions and why better decisions were not made, because what happened resulted in the prosecutions in the first place. I think that victims would want a statement followed by detailed questions and answers.
I agree whole-heartedly with Pauline McNeill. As I said yesterday, she will ask the First Minister a question on the subject tomorrow, but it would probably be more suitable for that question to go to the Lord Advocate, so that we could hear her position on that point and many others.
As I sum up, I am left wondering why SNP and Green MSPs will not support the change to business. Is the Lord Advocate comfortable with that? Is she sat in her chambers saying, “Don’t allow time for me to come to the Scottish Parliament to explain my position like I did in January this year”? Or is the Scottish Government now blocking the opportunity for her to come to the chamber? That is her right, and it is our right, as MSPs, to ask her here.
I simply ask the minister this question. If none of his SNP and Green colleagues could intervene and tell me this, perhaps he can. Does Scotland’s Lord Advocate, who sits round the Scottish Government Cabinet table, still believe that it would be wrong to have a mass exoneration of sub-postmasters in Scotland?
I move amendment S6M-13122.1, to insert after “the following programme of business—”:
“Thursday 9 May 2024
11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions
11.40 am General Questions
12.00 pm First Minister’s Questions
followed by Members’ Business — S6M-12342 Collette Stevenson: Shining a Light on Domestic Abuse in LGBT+ History Month
2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Appointment of Scottish Ministers
followed by Legislative Consent Motion: Data Protection and Digital Information Bill - UK Legislation
followed by Stage 1 Debate: Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill
followed by Statement by the Lord Advocate on Post Office Horizon Prosecutions
followed by Appointments of the Chair and Commissioners of the Poverty and Inequality Commission
followed by Business Motions
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5.30 pm Decision Time”.
17:40
Let us at least talk about the positives. We now all agree that those who were involved in the Post Office scandal, and who suffered as a result, are actually the ones whom we should be thinking of. Mr Ross said that, too. They are the most important ones. Those are families and individuals, who have—-as I said yesterday, and last week as well—had to deal with this on-going problem for decades.
To put everyone’s mind at ease, I reiterate that lead responsibility for developing and delivering the Post Office Horizon legislation lies with the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs, and it would be inappropriate for the Lord Advocate to provide a statement on the bill. That is the important point that we are talking about. All these individuals whom we have agreed we want to help are the important ones at this stage.
Will the minister give way?
As I explained yesterday, all members will get the opportunity to scrutinise the Scottish Government bill as it progresses through Parliament in the usual manner. I have nothing else to add at this point.
The question is, that amendment S6M-13122.1, in the name of Douglas Ross, which seeks to amend motion S6M-13122, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme, be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division. There will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system.
17:42 Meeting suspended.17:43 On resuming—
We move to the vote on amendment S6M-13122.1, in the name of Douglas Ross. Members should cast their votes now.
The vote is closed.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. My device would not connect—I would have voted yes.
Thank you, Ms Wells. We will ensure that that is recorded.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I think that my vote was recorded, but my screen is not refreshing. I would have voted yes.
I can confirm that your vote was recorded, Ms Duncan-Glancy. Thank you.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con)
Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division on amendment S6M-13122.1, in the name of Douglas Ross, which seeks to amend motion S6M-13122, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme, is: For 52, Against 68, Abstentions 0.
Amendment disagreed to.
The next question is, that motion S6M-13122, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme, be agreed to.
Motion agreed to,
That the Parliament agrees—
(a) the following programme of business—
Tuesday 14 May 2024
2.00 pm Time for Reflection
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Topical Questions (if selected)
followed by Stage 3 Proceedings: Housing (Cladding Remediation) (Scotland) Bill
followed by Committee Announcements
followed by Business Motions
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
6.00 pm Decision Time
followed by Members’ Business
Wednesday 15 May 2024
2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions
2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:
Constitution, External Affairs and Culture;
Justice and Home Affairs
followed by Scottish Labour Party Business
followed by Business Motions
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Approval of SSIs (If required)
5.10 pm Decision Time
followed by Members’ Business
Thursday 16 May 2024
11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions
11.40 am General Questions
12.00 pm First Minister's Questions
followed by Members’ Business
2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions
2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:
Education and Skills
followed by Stage 1 Debate: Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill
followed by Financial Resolution: Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill
followed by Appointment of the Chair of the Scottish Commission for Human Rights
followed by Appointment of Member of the Scottish Commission for Public Audit
followed by Business Motions
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5.00 pm Decision Time
Tuesday 21 May 2024
2.00 pm Time for Reflection
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Topical Questions (if selected)
followed by Stage 1 Debate: Post Office (Horizon System) Offences (Scotland) Bill
followed by Committee Announcements
followed by Business Motions
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5.00 pm Decision Time
followed by Members’ Business
Wednesday 22 May 2024
2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions
2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:
Wellbeing Economy, Net Zero and Energy;
Finance, Deputy First Minister Responsibilities and Parliamentary Business
followed by Stage 2 Proceedings: Post Office (Horizon System) Offences (Scotland) Bill
followed by Business Motions
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Approval of SSIs (if required)
5.00 pm Decision Time
followed by Members’ Business
Thursday 23 May 2024
11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions
11.40 am General Questions
12.00 pm First Minister's Questions
followed by Members’ Business
2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions
2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:
Transport
followed by Public Audit Committee Debate: Audit Scotland Report, Adult Mental Health
followed by Business Motions
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5.00 pm Decision Time
(b) that, for the purposes of Portfolio Questions in the week beginning 13 May 2024, in rule 13.7.3, after the word “except” the words “to the extent to which the Presiding Officer considers that the questions are on the same or similar subject matter or” are inserted.
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Colleges (Support)